Cost of muskie production.

Topics concerning muskellunge and fisheries research, diseases, stocking and management.
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Will Schultz
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Post by Will Schultz » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:44 pm

??????

No drama really, just people expressing their opinions and concerns. I would rather address them where others can read them, maybe getting answers to questions of their own. When people don't ask questions or don't make their thoughts known is where problems really start. Muskie anglers spread as much false or incorrect information as the "other anglers" that we always seem to talk about.

I said this earlier today in a PM to Nstagator about the stuff that goes on in MMA.
I've always said that I'm not in this to make friends. I'm in this for Michigan and all the muskie anglers in Michigan. Life is too short to get stressed about stupid stuff, speak your mind and get over it.
The DNR isn't against us or any part of Michigan and doesn't owe us a thing. If we don't do our part the footprints that have been left, in the last five years, will be erased along with the muskie program.
Self interest is for the past, common interest is for the future.

Scrappy
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Location: Sanford, MI

Post by Scrappy » Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:23 am

Will, I was a bit taken aback with the stat you quoted for fingerlings going into the Titt Chain. That is quite a few fish in the chain as a whole but that isn't really a fair comparison in my mind. The DNR perscription for the Titt Chain lakes are individual, not in the aggregate. It is as if they are 5 individual lakes, each with their own perscription. It is not fair to say that Sanford and Wixom should not get their full perscriptions because the other mud holes got fish in prior years. I don't think you are arguing with me that Sanford and Wixom have been on the short end of the stick when it comes to getting their full perscriptions. In fact, I do not believe that either lake has ever receied their full perscriptions since the inception of the Northern Musky stocking program. It's a shame too because at least if you listen to Don Barnard, Sanford and Wixom are amongst the most capable inland lakes of growing BIG muskies.

I'm all for MMA supporting muskies in the entire state and to expanding the program as well. However, I continue to believe very strongly that starting to stock new lakes, especially the size of Hamlin, when the state can't afford to raise enough muskies to meet the perscriptions of the lakes already on the rotation is a HUGE mistake. We continue to put the cart before the horse. Since money and DNR resourses are limited I say we stock the lakes already on the list to their full potential rather than spread what little fish we have in too many lakes. I also trongly believe that Hamlin (12,500 fish per year in the short term is WAY too much a drain on the program's limited resources) should be removed from the rotation until such time as Wolf Lake can produce more fish and affort to raise them properly.

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MuskyDan
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Post by MuskyDan » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:03 am

I haven't had the pleasure of fishing Wixom yet but I have fished Smallwood, Ross, and Secord. All of these lakes like Sanford are very tough to fish even in the peak parts of the season and shouldn't be compared to lakes like Ovid or Murray. Perhaps it is just the fishing skills of the group that fishes on Sanford and that if better fisherman fished the more fish would be "contacted". I don't buy it though. I also think that Ross may have as good or better fishing as the other lakes in the chain and is the most under fished because fishing in muddy water sucks! So to Winiyapooh that is like a big version of Ross.

Why aren't we coming up with cheaper ways to raise the forage? Where does the DNR buy the minnows and how much are they per measurement and what is the measurement? It seems that feeding these things is one of the biggest costs and one of the easiest to remedy.
MuskyDan

Scrappy
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Post by Scrappy » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:19 am

OK, finally someone with a point that I can agree with 100%. I suck as a musky fisherman. It's not Sanford at all. Hear that Pete and Duke and Ron, Bryan, Greg, Menz and the rest of you? We suck so sell your musky gear to Danny real cheap! Crap, I though Bomba was the only crummy musky guy that fished Sanford. :)

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Will Schultz
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Post by Will Schultz » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:25 am

Scrappy wrote:Will, I was a bit taken aback with the stat you quoted for fingerlings going into the Titt Chain. That is quite a few fish in the chain as a whole but that isn't really a fair comparison in my mind.
That was exactly my point and why we all need to be on the same page. The Titt. chain has been stocked with all the fish it needs, the problem is they aren't going where they need to go. If 23,000 fish had been split between Sanford and Wixom over the last four years would anyone be complaining? Probably but I hope not.

There is plenty of room in the program for the newer lakes if we continue to encourage the DNR to evaluate the stocking list. If Secord, Ross and Smallwood were removed from the list then it allows fish for Sanford and Wixom without the new lakes being a consideration. Encouraging the DNR to remove some lakes and reduce prescription numbers in lakes like Murray, Ovid, Round, Long, Osterhout, etc.

The problem is that when these prescriptions were written they didn't have a good idea of what would happen. Now that we have some data we can see that most of these lakes don't need to be stocked at 4/acre unless we're trying to start a reproducing population (Winyah, Hamlin, Margrethe). The put and take lakes like... well... nearly every LP lake on the list should probably be stocked at no more than 2/acre every other year.

Lastly, as said numerous times... I know everyone wants "their" lake stocked up to its potential. However, to keep throwing tons of fish at lakes that will never have natural reproduction is just buring resources. The top priority of MMA and the MI-DNR should be the lakes like Winyah, Hamlin, Margrethe, Long and the numerous UP lakes that have natural reproduction. If the strain we're stocking doesn't reproduce there then lets find one that does.

What if the muskie program goes away?
If we keep dumping tons of fish into these lakes, regardless of their trophy potential, in 15 years what will we have? Most importantly, what will we have left behind for our children and their children? Unfortunately this discussion is a perfect example of our society and the "what's in it for me?" attitude. If all we're doing is supporting a put an take program then maybe we need to create a pay to play type system like they have at game farms. You pay your $250/yr to fish on a lake and that money goes toward stocking that lake.

The more these discussions progress I realize maybe I'm not the right guy for this job. In 30 years I want to be able to talk to Tyler's son/daughter about how they caught their first muskie on a lake that MMA helped put on the map. I don't want to reminisce with Tyler about how we used to have a bunch of lakes with muskies but they're all gone because my generation was short sighted.
Self interest is for the past, common interest is for the future.

Bomba
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Post by Bomba » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:45 am

Will Schultz wrote:That was exactly my point and why we all need to be on the same page. The Titt. chain has been stocked with all the fish it needs, the problem is they aren't going where they need to go. If 23,000 fish had been split between Sanford and Wixom over the last four years would anyone be complaining? Probably but I hope not.
:lol: :lol: Classic.... not only do YOU keep our lakes from getting stocked, YOU have to pick on us east siders and call us complainers!!!!!!

Sorry someone had to say it :wink:

We shouldn't even be discussing this stuff until the hatchery gets
what it needs to keep the muskie stocking where it should be...
until then no one will be happy......
Don Bomba




"PASS IT ON"

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Will Schultz
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Post by Will Schultz » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:45 am

MuskyDan wrote:Why aren't we coming up with cheaper ways to raise the forage? Where does the DNR buy the minnows and how much are they per measurement and what is the measurement? It seems that feeding these things is one of the biggest costs and one of the easiest to remedy.
If you would have started at the beginning of this thread you would already have the answers to those questions. From discussions with other states we are as cheap or cheaper per fish. The problem is they can't use fatheads from Joe Randoms bait farm. The fatheads are sorted (right size) and most importantly disease free.
Self interest is for the past, common interest is for the future.

Bomba
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Post by Bomba » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:55 am

Scrappy wrote:OK, finally someone with a point that I can agree with 100%. I suck as a musky fisherman. It's not Sanford at all. Hear that Pete and Duke and Ron, Bryan, Greg, Menz and the rest of you? We suck so sell your musky gear to Danny real cheap! Crap, I though Bomba was the only crummy musky guy that fished Sanford. :)
Nope I'm just the only one who doesn't COMPLAIN ABOUT IT anymore :wink:
Don Bomba




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Cyberlunge
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Post by Cyberlunge » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:02 pm

Guys I know this is a heated issue but there is another consideration that has not been raised.

If the state is going to put $$ into a program that should draw anglers it needs to be on waters that draw anglers. Lakes like those in the middle of the state get a lot of traffic, I will not fish them. If people are going for an up north experience they do not want to see houses one after another.
There fore the stocking considerations can not be totally about where the lake is but rather what the lake is as well.

Kevin
If I wasn't born to fish then why am I here?

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gmochty
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Post by gmochty » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:06 pm

Will I disagree! GM

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MuskyDan
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Post by MuskyDan » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:10 pm

Scrappy wrote:OK, finally someone with a point that I can agree with 100%. I suck as a musky fisherman. It's not Sanford at all. Hear that Pete and Duke and Ron, Bryan, Greg, Menz and the rest of you? We suck so sell your musky gear to Danny real cheap! Crap, I though Bomba was the only crummy musky guy that fished Sanford. :)
I do hope you understood my point though. We, I include myself in that group you mentioned can fish the lake all year long with only two reasonable periods throughout the year that the limited number of fish are available. One of those times of the year is when people came from around the state for the tournament. The number of fish caught during a time when the fishing in the lake is superb should be an example of how few fish there actually is but instead it is a "what are they bitchin' about" deal.
MuskyDan

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gmochty
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Post by gmochty » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:11 pm

Don you don't fish anymore. I haven't seen you on sanford in at least year. You dont have anything to complain about!!!!!

Bomba
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Post by Bomba » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:19 pm

gmochty wrote:Don you don't fish anymore. I haven't seen you on sanford in at least year. You dont have anything to complain about!!!!!
EXACTLY!!!! Thats because there aren't enough fish in there... :D
Same drive for me, Ovid or Sanford, which would you choose?
Don Bomba




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MuskyDan
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Post by MuskyDan » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:21 pm

Will Schultz wrote:
MuskyDan wrote:Why aren't we coming up with cheaper ways to raise the forage? Where does the DNR buy the minnows and how much are they per measurement and what is the measurement? It seems that feeding these things is one of the biggest costs and one of the easiest to remedy.
If you would have started at the beginning of this thread you would already have the answers to those questions. From discussions with other states we are as cheap or cheaper per fish. The problem is they can't use fatheads from Joe Randoms bait farm. The fatheads are sorted (right size) and most importantly disease free.
I thought I started at the begining, maybe I am missing something? Why do the minnow prices vary so much from year to year? I am comparing the total minnow cost to the fish produced and there just seems to be some huge differences. What is the unit of measure that the state buys to feed the fish and what does it cost, and does that price change? And who sorts the minnows for the naturally occuring fish?
MuskyDan

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gmochty
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Post by gmochty » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:28 pm

Don your right. I wont be fishing sanford on the opener, thats for sure.

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